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I couldn't confirm this at first in my American Heritage Dictionary, which is a copy of the 3rd edition. However, when I accessed my 2nd edition of Watkins' American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, which claims "its nearly 1350 entries are more than double the number contained in the Appendix of Indo-European Root of the Fourth Edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of English", I readily found the I-E root steu-, with its "derivatives referring to projecting objects, fragments, and certain related expressive notions and qualities. Thus, both "steep" and "steeple" contain connotations of lofty or projecting or deep, and "stock" was originally a tree trunk (compare stockade). "Stupid" and "stupendous" derived from a Latin verb meaning "to be stunned". Tympanum -- Greek tympanon -- is a drum (something beaten).

How then does Styx ("extended zero-grade form *stug-) then fit in here? Well, perhaps it's related to depth, with Styx plunging deep into the underworld. Or perhaps it's related to the traditional rivers so named rushing steeply from a mountainside. The next question is how the Greek word derived from this root means hated, abhorrent, etc.? Perhaps Room's statement that "'crossing the Styx' meant death and was to be feared and abhorred" (compare crossing the Jordan in a Christian context of going to Heaven rather than to Hades), provides the appropriate clue -- that indeed the meanings "hated" or "abhorrent" arose secondarily, after the river(s) Styx was identified as a border between life and death.

River Jordan was imagined by some prophets as flowing into a gaping mouth of the Behemoth /a hellish monster/. Was it an abstraction with no topographical connotations!? I doubt it!! It seems to me, that Behemoth was a symbolic code for the spiritual qualities of the Dead Sea. Gehinnom Valley, south of Jerusalem, maybe pertains to the same set
of coordinates. Similarly, analyzing what Pausanias has to say about river Styx in Arcadia could probably help.

Let me do this for Juergen, which had probably no time enough to open Pausanias !?

"As you travel west from Pheneos into the setting sun...right-hand road takes you to NONAKRIS and the STREAMS of the STYX. In the old days Nonakris was an Arkadian town named after Lykaon`s wife, but in our own times it lies in ruins... Not far from these ruins is a high crag: I have never seen a rock face so high; the water falls sheer down it, and this is the stream that the Greeks call Styx..." And Peter Levi (translator of Pausanias`"Guide to Greece. Book VIII - Arkadia") adds : "...The falls of the Styx are now called Mavroneri (the Black Water); the river falls 600 feet down a sheer face of the ridge of Chelmos."

I found it interesting that the waters of Styx had these peculiarities (shortened) : "...The stream flows into the river Krathis and its water is death to men and to all animals. They say the water of the Styx dissolves glass and crystal and agate and all the stone objects known to man and all the stone objects known to man, even pottery vessels. The water corrupts horn and bone, iron and bronze, and even lead and tin and silver and the alloy of silver and gold...and the only thing able to resist the river Styx is a HORSE`S HOOF, which will hold the water you pour in and not be destroyed by it..."

So, when looking for the beginnings of the idea of Styx, we should take this peculiarity into account, am I right!? What a kind of a mythical horse was that!?

Ok, Vlad. It`s because I`d estimated that this topic was exhausted. Well, if you want, we can try to look at this landscape with a "mythical" eye.

First - "Nonakris" (Nine-Tops) nearby the Styx` spring. This name brings to mind the statue of Artemis with so many breasts - found in Miletos. (I know, I know...there are people who want them to be a bunch of dates or bulls`testicles) And from one of Her paps comes Styx flowing!? Hmmm... anyway. So, Lykaon`s wife (or a goddess, whom he worshipped!?) - Nonakris, was maybe really Artemis!?

What about other paps of the supposed local All-Mother!? Krathis river seems to flow out from some other of them!? Creation in an equilibrium with destruction!? It sounds like ideas behind many different goddesses of life and death.

From the Pausanias` list of materials and living beings, which underwent destruction in contact with the water of the Styx, we could see that it was a very universal destructing agent. Why a horse`s hoof being indestructible!? The connection with the Moon (crescent = horseshoe) says "water of Styx = negative Moon magic". And what about Arkadian Poseidon in a form of a horse in this context!? Indoeuropean traditions point to a horse as a symbol of the Universal Creator!!

Well, well. It`s really a landscape worth wandering through - this Arkadia; with a Pausanias`copy in hand!!

Nonakris might also mean nine spring-heads - suggesting a fountain nymph.

Herodotus also describes the Styx:

I wonder what the swearing involved, just pouring libations of the water, or inbibing it as well?
Its not clear how corrosive the waters were, Pausanias may just be recounting an old wives tale. In the same sentence he says the urine of he-goat dissolves diamonds!!
Though of all the water-vessels, a horses' hoof would be reasonably immune to corrosive acids - hoof material is dense hair fibres & so not prone to corrosion like metals and bone.
Perhaps horse hooves were by shepherd's to make primitive water flasks.

I tried to find a picture of the Styx online, not much luck under either modern or old name.

I would insist however, that there are some additional layers of meaning under Pausanias` semingly naive and uncritical relations. For whom he was writing this guide-book anyway!? Learning first the world of his public`s ideas could help in dechiffering of some cultural codes, which are largely undetectable for us.

Who doesn`t laugh reading some alchemical recipes nowadays!? The same is with this he-goat urine and a diamond. But how can be sure that it is not a learned allusion to some fables known in his times!?

As a "quintessence", I would rather give him a medaille for his preserving of so many details regarding local beliefs and their connections to the features of landscape. Otherwise, we could be tempted to take the generally accepted "Olympian" vision of cults in ancient Greece for real !!

Pausanias' audience appears to be the Greek and Roman elite of the Empire. He seems to be far more interested in history and notable art and architectural works, than religion. Though he does question the cult priests or caretakers when the urge takes him, and adds their stories.

As for Greco-Roman pseudo-science, you just have to read Pliny's "Un-"Natural History, for an example of the many funny misconceptions the ancients had.

You cannot read a text like Pausanias with just one eye, and its impossible to put many of his comments into any sort of context.
Some of his material, is just, the standard trashy tourist manual stuff "if you're visiting Helos, go check out the egg Helen hatched" ... or "go see the mumified remains of a monster Triton in Tanagra!".
You can see he doesn't have that much interest in the religious aspects, simply because of the low % of references in the work as a whole. And of course he almost completely omits descriptions of religious festivals, except to illustrate a particularly unusual or curious custom in describing a particular site.

Well it was the "Lonely Planet Guide" of that time...

I'm certain Pausanias was overexagerrating now and then, but which writer/guide/journalist/cronichler hasn't done that?

I'm still guessing we are looking for a river which water has been polluted by some seismic/vulcanic activity. Perhaps it was toxic, and not drinkable or even fit for swimming in, and then people were exaggerating it to scare the children off, and when it reached Pausanias's ears it had been sort of distorted.

Hi,Caliadne. When comparing your text on Styx taken from Herodotos and the description of the Styx spring/falls in Pausanias, one conclusion is inevitable. Maybe both were using some cliches of their time, instead of real knowledge. The first forms a vision of a ceremonial pond, which in antiquity signified frequently an Entrance to the Underworld. The second had probably taken the most scenic fragment of the general area pointed out by tradition (Chelmos Range, Krathis river, etc.), - to form an interesting route for tourists. The only "crop" we`ve got from the present discussion is maybe that the Styx was sometimes presupposed to come flowing from somewhere on high!?

Wait a minute. Do you guys know that maybe the only living analogon to Greek cults you can find in India!? And as for IMAGINARY RIVERS, which are hard to locate, there`s at least one over there. During the feast of Kumbha Mela, when around 100 millions people visit the confluence area of Ganges and Jamuna, there are also many saddhus (wise men; sages, or like) there. And they maintain that a third river is flowing across this area - the Saraswati river. And the saddhus are taking bath in Saraswati, while the others cannot see any such river around.

As for Hades and its rivers. Wherefrom comes this assumption that the Land of Hades with its rivers should lie somewhere underground!? Well, if Dionysos plunges into the pond of Lerna to get his mother out of Hades...!? Yes, in this case it`s maybe obvious that you enter Hades going underground. But in many other cases (like of Odysseus) it seems that you enter Hades going through a gate and entering some area put apart only for the souls of the deceased in our own real world. Well, well, in the West we`ve forgotten what a "taboo" (or sacred) area means.

All in all, the river of Styx may flow somewhere in the area of Nonakris in Arkadia, as the cited authors told us. But what if originally it could be seen by the eyes of a "saddhu" only!?

Hi, Sten. It seems to me that more popular in Europe are those "bottomless" ponds or lakes as entrances to the Underworld. I know hundreds of them designated as such and have never pondered about the real meaning of having no bottom, until now.
And as for those "esoteric" rivers of Indian saddhus; one question is maybe in place here. Do they wind or flow along a straight line !? If the latter is the case, no wonder that those "imaginary" rivers coincide with their real counterparts only to some extent !?

There were also caves that said to be the entrances into the underworld.

And I guess people beleived that there were entrances in vulcanic areas because of the amount of sulfur fumes and the likes. "The stench of hell" if you like.

Personally I'm not really that sure that there ever was a believed "part of Styx" reaching the upper world. Or perhaps there were, but it was considered to be "beyond the known world".

And I'm not sure Odysseus' Hades trip was really considered being a physical one. They way I've come to regard it is that it was a "spiritual trip", perhaps undertaken under hypnosis and/or by using drugs. Remeber, he went down under with the help of Circe, who knew magic. Or perhaps he didn't even "trip", he just called up some spirits (including Achilles) until he found Tiresias.

Perhaps Circe worked as medium and Odysseus simply asked her qestions, and she answered under influences of the different spirits.

Hi guys. Maybe we`ve forgotten that our cemeteries are just such areas "put aside for the souls of the deceased only". When you enter the gate, it`s usually not proper to eat, laugh or do other profane things there. (I exclude such extreme situations like Gypsies coming to graves of their ancestors, instead to a court of law, and reenacting a quarrel with a hope that grandpa can best judge their squabbles.) Our own living traditions point to the fact, that "Hades" as a special sacred space in our own real world is a feasible idea. But, of course, there are several different "Hades" spacing ideas, coexisting in human traditions. Take for instance burials in Neanderthalic dens, in the early towns of Asia Minor or under the floor of medieval churches in Europe. Association of such burials with the notion of "Hades" hidden deep underground, is obvious.

I believe most of these trips down under were really spiritual ones. Including Heracles'.

I can picture Heracles invoking the spirit of Cerberus instead of really "going to Hades". Perhaps the event took place in the very castle of Eurystheus, and with the king present. A king who really believed these things with spirits and the underworld was humbug and nursery tales. And when Eurystheus saw the dog-ghost being invoked he freaked of course.

Such a interpretation of the 12:th labour would both be something different to this endless travelling of H and show a broader spectre of his abilities. Not only bravery and super strenght but also qualities as a magician/spiritual medium.

And I also think the Hades/Persephone thing originally was a death mystery/hieros gamos tradition that became intertwined with the year cycle and thus the story with the kidnapped goddess was born. I can imagine it starting off as an invitation rite where young girls coupled with older men symbolizing death in an allegory of life's inevitable cycle including its ending. Like in: Death kidnaps everyone, sooner or later, even the most beautyful little girl.

So no living being (including gods and demigods) really "went" to Hades, but some gifted people had the ability to go there in their minds.

As a comment. Who was that who said this: -" There are no such places like Hell or Heaven; these are only terms denoting states of a human mind" !? Well, it was late Pope John Paul II, who used to be a playwriter and philosopher before moving to Rome.

Well, would that mean that he did not believe on heaven nor in hell. Did he perhaps believe in God?

Yes, he did. And his opinion on Hell and the Heaven perhaps should be taken as a fragment of his early philosophic discussions, aiming at critical review of antique ideas preserved in catholic theology. Well, from the point of view of an individual mind (in the meaning of the "higher soul" or spirit), maybe it`s like this that these terms are only designations of the state of this particular mind. Any other conceptions of the Otherworld are sociocultural constructs and differ from one time/place to another. John Paul`s definition had the advantage that it could be applied throughout the whole humanity with no regard to cultural and historical differences.

Supposed mystic rivers of Hades, existing even in our world, could be found all over Balkan and elsewhere (e.g. Yukatan of ancient Mayas in Mexico), in so called "karst" landscapes. There`s a complicated system of underground hollows in such areas and it happens frequently that a stream plunges underground and then surfaces some kilometres away. Some ancient Greeks even tried to explain the identity of Asopos river names in Peloponnese and in Boiotia in this way.

Hi,Caliadne
There`s no any photo of Styx springs on the Net, as you`ve told us. But, if you go to www.gnto.gr (The Greek National Tourist Organisation)and download the map of mountain paths titled as "chelmos2", you can view the ruggy environment in detail. Coordinates are : longitude 22 degree 13` and latitude 37 degree 59`. Styx is named Mavronero(Stys) and to SW there are several ponds named Mavrolimni. Two of surrounding peaks are named after Nereids : Neraidalono (2252) and Neraidorachi (2338).

Thetis - mother of Achilles, was a leader of Nereids and all information sites about excursions into the Chelmos massive (mostly under "Achaia prefecture") insist that it was here that she bathed him in Styx to impregnate his body against wounds. So, like in many other cases, archetypal motives from Greek myths are used to denote places, where a kind of "natural magic" occurs, which people can take advantage of. Or, in other words, in such places the myths, magic and religion are coming together into a kind of primordial unity.

Still, why Arkadians were calling Cretans liars, when it came to the birthplace of Zeus!? Were they so stuck into their local world-view with its heavenly pole on Mt.Lykaion and the chthonian one at the Styx!? In prehellenic world-view, "Zeus" was probably born each Spring at local cosmic centers all over Aegean. When there are so many Olympuses all over the place (i.e. in Euboea, Karpathos, etc; not to name many "Panhellenios"- in Aegina, Chios and "Zas" - i.e. in Naxos), this supposition is inevitable!! Does it mean that every countryside had its place, where Thetis bathed her son!? Well... I suppose that this spiritual (and physical!?) quality of a particular running water can be elaborated into many different sagas.

Probably because it's a part of human nature to be "stuck into ones local world-view" wherever you lived in ancient Arcadia, the old Roman Empire, old USSR, modern European Union, California, Israel, you name it. Your neighborhood, your tribe your nation is the best, the most holy, the smartest, the bravest, the most rightful, the selected ones by this or that mighty god/dess who just happened to be born on a mountain top nearby...

The Cretans were probably calling the Arkadians liars too, bthw.