Close Topic Options

Hi!

Does anyone know the meaning of the name Styx. (If there was any that is)

It means the hated. The name is just the female form of the word stygos, hate.

I guess thats why Hesiod makes her the mother of Zelos (envy, jealousy).
In a way the others are linked to hatred as well: Bia (force), Kratos (strength), Nike (victory), at least when they are driving combat.

And the Hated River can be found both in Arcadia (Peloponnese) and Hades. Then, there
was a most serious oath by the River Styx. (Which one!?) Even gods would fall into trouble when not keeping their words. But most curious is the Stygian Water, used by some witches to bring disaster on somebody`s crops or cattle. ( Taken from Arcadian river, river in Hades; or may be home-made to some special recepture!?)

The oath was just that you sworn on the water of Styx that you were telling the truth. The gods used to do that and if you drank from that water and was a liar, you ended up in coma for a year, and then for the next 9 years you were banned from the gatherings of the deities.

No god ever have to suffer from that punishment though, I guess just the thought scared them off.

Perhaps there were some examples where the oath was enforced. The story of the exile of Apollon springs to mind, where he was forced to serve Admetos as a shepherd for 8 years, after he slew the Kyklopes.
Poseidon and Apollon bound in servitude to King Laomedon at Troy may be another example.
The coma is not mentioned, but then the old Homeric versions of these stories don't survive, and what we have is somewhat fragmentary.

And the oath river mentioned by Hesiod, its assumed to be the Styx in Arkadia. But there was another candidate - one which flowed directly from the slopes of Mount Olympos itself. Homer mentions it in Bk2 of the Iliad:

"Lovely Titaressos, who into Peneios casts his bright current: yet he is not mixed with the silver whirls of Peneios, but like oil is floated along the surface above him: since he is broken from the water of Styx, the fearful oath-river."

The River also flowed down from Mount Titarios, next to Olympos. I wonder if there was any connection with the Titans - the name of mountain and river are quite suggestive; it also sounds like Tartaros, the prison of the Titans and subterranean home of the Styx.

I wondered if this mount Titarios was the same as the white-rock of Titanos, mentioned by Homer in the same passage describing Thessaly.

I looked up a picture of Mt Titaros (its modern name) on the internet, 2nd one down: http://www.pieria-tourism.gr/en/2/2.1/default.asp

Clearly its full of white rock, just as Homer describes.

Could Titanos, Olympos' neighbouring mountain, have been the home of the Titans of myth?
Imprisoned beneath the oily streams of the Titaressos (Tartaros) river?

The Titans were also called Akmonides, and just on the opposite side of the Titaros Mts is the river Haliakmon!

Zeus also once threatened to exile Athena 'n' Hera (if they did not stay out of Troy war business) - but no lie was connected to that event.

Was there a lie when Apollo was exiled and then Apollo and Poseidon? Wasn't it about them opposing Zeus, and Apollo killing the thunderbolt-making cyclopes as a revenge when Zeus killed Apollos son Asklepios (who then was made into a god while Apollo was away how ironic!).

There`s also Mt.Titanos (693 m) - ca 30 km to the West from Larissa (Thessaly). But of course, looking for topographical relations around Mt. Olympus to the stories about the Titans or about Giants storming the Mountain, seems promising. One of questions is about the scale of such investigations. E.g. I`ve used to take Phlegra = Pallene =current Kassandra Peninsula (the westernmost of the three Chalkidike`s peninsulas), as a kind of a counterweight to Mt.Olympos.

OATH OF STYX

Lies and oaths. Yes, there is that aspect - like a modern court setting. I was thinking more of an oath as a pledge which was the usual context.
In the story of Apollon, I was thinking more of the breaking of the oath of allegiance, with the backstory of Kyklopes in mind.

In short, Hesiod says, before the start of the Titan-War, Zeus released the Kyklopes from Tartaros, and they crafted lightning bolts and thunder for the god. Then they built an altar, (the constellation Altar), to which Zeus summoned his allies for the coming war. The first to appear were Styx and her children, who pledged allegiance to the new king - her own stream became the binding agent of the oath. As other allies arrived they also swore allegiance with the oath of the Styx - presumably also Zeus' children, who seem to have participated in the war according to a few fragmentary accounts.
What Apollon might have done when he slaughtered the Kyklopes was break his oath of allegiance to Zeus, sworn by the Styx, and so suffered the effects.
It seems a logical flow:
Kyklopes Release -> Altar of Alliance -> Oath of the Styx -> Murder of Kyklopes
-> Oath-Breaker Punished

It may not be so, its just an idea, of how the oath of the Styx may have appeared in an actual myth, of which we have only a brief summary.

MOUNT TITANOS

Yes, I think the other Titanos, comes from Strabo, who tried to match of Homer's names with actual places - the identities had been lost and forgotted with time (Thessaly in particular was wracked by wars, and the indigenous populations dispersed). So one must take some of his identifications with a grain of salt, there are a few obvious errors which have been carried through to modern times.
Besides we have no good descriptions of Thessaly - Pausanias' books on the region are lost, Strabo's are fragmentary.

The chalky stony of the mountain, comes forth in an Orphic story also, where the Titans smear their faces with white chalk, and sneak up to Olympos to slay the god Zagreus who sits on the throne of heaven armed with lightning.

Mt Titanos is a major peak like Olympos, I think something like 2200 m vs 2600 high. One can imagine two rival pantheons of gods on facing mountains warring like the hill-tribes from their Mycenaean hill-top forts (acropoli).

Yes Pallene makes a good alternative. If Gigantes and Titanes are the same. The Greeks seem to have acknowledged two distinct traditions, and differentiated the pair.
Other than geographical location - Pallene is a good location for Giants lobbing rocks across the Gulf at Olympos. Is there any physical aspect of the Pallene peninsular that would make it seem like a home for Giants? eg Lots of large boulders, or some thermal activity?

This is the problem with Pallene (nowadays Kassandra Peninsula). I`ve tried to find any fitting NATURAL FEATURES in guide books accessible to me, but in vain. And it`s curious. If there were any, I suppose the local tourist moderators should be keen on underlining them with the stories of Gigantomachy, already in the time of Pausanias. I mean the type of "you could become as strong as a Giant, if you`d take a bath in our famous hot-springs". Only way out seems to be a trip down there and looking around personally. Maybe a cluster of St.George ( or St.Demetrios - his equivalent) chapels, with some accompanying ancient stone heaps, could be found this way, at the least!

The other thing is where to draw a borderline between the Titans and the Giants!? It`s
maybe more or less obvious that Titans are elder, have no need for consulting their Mother (being still a part of Her!?), and maybe impersonated a spiritual power of a special mountain dominating a tribe`s or a polis`territory. Such a CULT of MOUNTAINS could be discerned in Hittite sources and maybe once dominated even in Greece. Panhellenic novelties as Olympian Zeus and, maybe, Atlas and Prometheus - in place of local heaven-supporting Titans, could eliminate those mountain cults. This free space could be then filled up with Giants, just as the Greek myths say poetically - to take "revenge" on Olympian Gods.

In this process, some hybrids could be formed, which are representing features of both Titans and Giants. I suppose, TITHYOS is one of them. What if originally he was revered as the impersonation of the "titanic" power of Mt.Olympos in Euboea!? Then, associated with Gaia and the "wandering" Lady Elare, he became a Giant, only to suffer a prolonged Promethean (two vultures and his liver) martyrdom at Panopeios (its local "Hades") - each year anew or what!? BTW To the North you can find two local names connected, as it seems, to Tithyos : - Tithorea and Tithronium.

But back to those STYX problems. I wonder, why there`s no a duplicate of the Styx River in Tesprotia (Epirus)!? Well, if we`ve got Acheroon and Kokytos there...why not
Styx...

Well, perhaps there was some connection with the rivers of Thesprotia.

The Titaressos has its main source in the foothills of Mts Olympos and Titarios, but then arcs west towards the Pindar Mts, before backtracking east.

Homer says the country of the Perrhaibians included Thesprotian Dodona, as well as (some portions) of the Titaressos river. So there seems to be a connection between the Styx (from which the Titaressos flowed), and those of the western rivers of the coast of Thesprotia - Akheron etc. The Greeks also believed the Styx, like many rivers, flowed under the earth, so that it should feed two rivers on opposite sides of the Pindar Mountains seems reasonable.

Looking at Mt Titanos again, yes, I think Homer did mean the peak in Phthiotis to the south. He is speaking of the kingdom of Eurypylos, who received his bow from Herakles on Mt Oita, and Mt Oita was the fortress of the Titanes acc. to some.

Though I guess the Titarios peak near Olympos could have been a rival candidate.

You are right about Pallene (Kassandra Penins.), there does not seem to be anything special about it.

Since you mentioned Euboian Titans, there were two more, Krios and probably the Euboian Aristaios (= Hesiod's Astraios?).

Scrap that, i confused Eurypylos with Philoktetes.

Homer places the Thessalian Mount Titanos in the territory of the Ormenios, which lies between the Trikkans of westernmost Thessaly, and the Lapiths around Mt Olympos.
So Mt Titarios or rather its mountain range (Homer's "the pale peaks of Titanos") would appear to form the northern border of their territory.
Historically, no-one knew where Ormenion was, except that it formed a border with the Lapith country.

Homer names two of the Ormenian towns Hypereia (of the Titan Hyperion?) and Asterion (of the Titans Astraios &/or Asteria?).

A couple of the female Titans also had their cult centres nearby - Mnemosyne on the Pierian slopes of Mt Olympos, and Themis at Ikhnaie on the Thessalian plain.

Iapetos seems to be somehow connected with the Lapiths. At least in myth, one Lapith warrior was called a son of Iapetos. The only geographical link for the name.

It sounds very interesting with your mythical Titan topography and the location of the STYXes as several outflows of one common underground river of Hades.

Now, as for Pallene as a place from where Giants could sling stones against Mt.Olympos. Heaps of stones size of a fist, discovered frequently at the feet of towers in fortified settlements are guessed to have been prepared there for catapults, in case of defending inhabitants against a besieging army. To a heap of such stones at some stage a legend could be attached that they were prepared by the Giants for the case of a battle. (All predecessors are greater than we, aren`t they!?) Later, a topographical connection could be forgotten but the legend would have lived its own life further on.

Now, it would be possible to guess which heap of stones was that in Pallene only, if on this location the supposed tradition had been transformed into a Christian one. Simply, I`ve seen enough St.George chapels in Greece, lined with associated heaps of stones, to know this connection. A Knight killing the Dragon with a lance or trident is a
surviving modest local representation of the Gigantomachy, I suppose. But what were those "ceremonial" heaps of stones (hermaia) good for is another story!!

Now I don't remember the name of the Greek river where the Styx water was said to end up, but it was a river somewhere between Athens and Olympos. But I do remember that it was said that the two waters did not blend, that the water coming from Styx ran "by itself" in a slow, slushing and cold stream in the middle of the river, and that this stream could sometimes even be seen.

Now I wonder what kind of natural phenomena might've caused such an effect.

I suppose this phenomenon is simply the difference in density, caused by vast dissimilarity of temperatures, contents of chemicals (in volcanic areas) or suspended matter in separate streams before their confluence. And if a dramatic environment had prompted human minds to ascribe different spiritual qualities to separate streams or rivers, it could result in myth-like or alegoric stories!?

It is possible the waters were polluted with oil. Homer describes an oily substance floating on the Peneios where it and the Titaressos converged.

Classical authors (400 years or so after Homer) do not know of this phenomenon, but then the oil source which might have spoiled the subterranean springs of the river was perhaps exhausted.

Then again it could have just been silt. Though the "floating" and not mixing with the Peneios R. makes it sound more like oil.

Both Caliadne's explanations sounds both plausible and possible source of an effect like something that could trigger people's imagination.
Oil mixed with water might also give a "rainbow-like" pattern (you've probably seen the effect when oil drips from cars mixes with pudddles in the street) that would also trigger people's imagination and connect the water to Iris - the messenger and rainbow goddess and the one who was said to be the one who went for the water of Styx when it was needed for oaths.
Add to that a barren nature where the river surfaces (even if ancient Greece weren't as barren as it is today) and it's quite easy to connect that river to the main river of the Underworld.

Thanks all for your help! I found the name later (hateful) but all the other info was valuable as well.

Caliadne wrote:

This triggered some interest too, gonna look into this!

Styx in my American Heritage Dictionary comes from the Indo-European root steu-, which means "to push or beat". Other derivatives from this root are [/I]steep, stock, tuck, stupid, tympanum[I], etc.

Weren't the titans having a HQ on a mountain top too? The Teogony doesn't really mention that they were, but reading between the lines you get the feeling that they did. (Like when Zeus storms their stronghold together with the 100handeds) And I've read about it in other places.

On the other hand, the areas around Olympos are rather montaneous, so it would only be logical to assume that the Titans had their own mountain strong hold too.