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| Posted by: Frida May 13, 2005 | 18:26 GMT |
| Hi! Does anyone know the meaning of the name Styx. (If there was any that is) |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 13, 2005 | 18:36 GMT |
| It means the hated. The name is just the female form of the word stygos, hate. I guess thats why Hesiod makes her the mother of Zelos (envy, jealousy). In a way the others are linked to hatred as well: Bia (force), Kratos (strength), Nike (victory), at least when they are driving combat. |
| Posted by: Juergen May 14, 2005 | 6:08 GMT |
| And the Hated River can be found both in Arcadia (Peloponnese) and Hades. Then, there was a most serious oath by the River Styx. (Which one!?) Even gods would fall into trouble when not keeping their words. But most curious is the Stygian Water, used by some witches to bring disaster on somebody`s crops or cattle. ( Taken from Arcadian river, river in Hades; or may be home-made to some special recepture!?) |
| Posted by: Silverblue May 14, 2005 | 18:01 GMT | ||
The oath was just that you sworn on the water of Styx that you were telling the truth. The gods used to do that and if you drank from that water and was a liar, you ended up in coma for a year, and then for the next 9 years you were banned from the gatherings of the deities. No god ever have to suffer from that punishment though, I guess just the thought scared them off. |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 15, 2005 | 15:58 GMT |
| Perhaps there were some examples where the oath was enforced. The story of the exile of Apollon springs to mind, where he was forced to serve Admetos as a shepherd for 8 years, after he slew the Kyklopes. Poseidon and Apollon bound in servitude to King Laomedon at Troy may be another example. The coma is not mentioned, but then the old Homeric versions of these stories don't survive, and what we have is somewhat fragmentary. And the oath river mentioned by Hesiod, its assumed to be the Styx in Arkadia. But there was another candidate - one which flowed directly from the slopes of Mount Olympos itself. Homer mentions it in Bk2 of the Iliad: "Lovely Titaressos, who into Peneios casts his bright current: yet he is not mixed with the silver whirls of Peneios, but like oil is floated along the surface above him: since he is broken from the water of Styx, the fearful oath-river." The River also flowed down from Mount Titarios, next to Olympos. I wonder if there was any connection with the Titans - the name of mountain and river are quite suggestive; it also sounds like Tartaros, the prison of the Titans and subterranean home of the Styx. |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 15, 2005 | 16:33 GMT |
| I wondered if this mount Titarios was the same as the white-rock of Titanos, mentioned by Homer in the same passage describing Thessaly. I looked up a picture of Mt Titaros (its modern name) on the internet, 2nd one down: http://www.pieria-tourism.gr/en/2/2.1/default.asp Clearly its full of white rock, just as Homer describes. Could Titanos, Olympos' neighbouring mountain, have been the home of the Titans of myth? Imprisoned beneath the oily streams of the Titaressos (Tartaros) river? The Titans were also called Akmonides, and just on the opposite side of the Titaros Mts is the river Haliakmon! |
| Posted by: Lestat May 15, 2005 | 20:31 GMT |
| Zeus also once threatened to exile Athena 'n' Hera (if they did not stay out of Troy war business) - but no lie was connected to that event. Was there a lie when Apollo was exiled and then Apollo and Poseidon? Wasn't it about them opposing Zeus, and Apollo killing the thunderbolt-making cyclopes as a revenge when Zeus killed Apollos son Asklepios (who then was made into a god while Apollo was away how ironic!). |
| Posted by: Juergen May 16, 2005 | 5:56 GMT |
| There`s also Mt.Titanos (693 m) - ca 30 km to the West from Larissa (Thessaly). But of course, looking for topographical relations around Mt. Olympus to the stories about the Titans or about Giants storming the Mountain, seems promising. One of questions is about the scale of such investigations. E.g. I`ve used to take Phlegra = Pallene =current Kassandra Peninsula (the westernmost of the three Chalkidike`s peninsulas), as a kind of a counterweight to Mt.Olympos. |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 16, 2005 | 10:00 GMT |
| OATH OF STYX Lies and oaths. Yes, there is that aspect - like a modern court setting. I was thinking more of an oath as a pledge which was the usual context. In the story of Apollon, I was thinking more of the breaking of the oath of allegiance, with the backstory of Kyklopes in mind. In short, Hesiod says, before the start of the Titan-War, Zeus released the Kyklopes from Tartaros, and they crafted lightning bolts and thunder for the god. Then they built an altar, (the constellation Altar), to which Zeus summoned his allies for the coming war. The first to appear were Styx and her children, who pledged allegiance to the new king - her own stream became the binding agent of the oath. As other allies arrived they also swore allegiance with the oath of the Styx - presumably also Zeus' children, who seem to have participated in the war according to a few fragmentary accounts. What Apollon might have done when he slaughtered the Kyklopes was break his oath of allegiance to Zeus, sworn by the Styx, and so suffered the effects. It seems a logical flow: Kyklopes Release -> Altar of Alliance -> Oath of the Styx -> Murder of Kyklopes -> Oath-Breaker Punished It may not be so, its just an idea, of how the oath of the Styx may have appeared in an actual myth, of which we have only a brief summary. MOUNT TITANOS Yes, I think the other Titanos, comes from Strabo, who tried to match of Homer's names with actual places - the identities had been lost and forgotted with time (Thessaly in particular was wracked by wars, and the indigenous populations dispersed). So one must take some of his identifications with a grain of salt, there are a few obvious errors which have been carried through to modern times. Besides we have no good descriptions of Thessaly - Pausanias' books on the region are lost, Strabo's are fragmentary. The chalky stony of the mountain, comes forth in an Orphic story also, where the Titans smear their faces with white chalk, and sneak up to Olympos to slay the god Zagreus who sits on the throne of heaven armed with lightning. Mt Titanos is a major peak like Olympos, I think something like 2200 m vs 2600 high. One can imagine two rival pantheons of gods on facing mountains warring like the hill-tribes from their Mycenaean hill-top forts (acropoli). Yes Pallene makes a good alternative. If Gigantes and Titanes are the same. The Greeks seem to have acknowledged two distinct traditions, and differentiated the pair. Other than geographical location - Pallene is a good location for Giants lobbing rocks across the Gulf at Olympos. Is there any physical aspect of the Pallene peninsular that would make it seem like a home for Giants? eg Lots of large boulders, or some thermal activity? |
| Posted by: Juergen May 16, 2005 | 11:34 GMT |
| This is the problem with Pallene (nowadays Kassandra Peninsula). I`ve tried to find any fitting NATURAL FEATURES in guide books accessible to me, but in vain. And it`s curious. If there were any, I suppose the local tourist moderators should be keen on underlining them with the stories of Gigantomachy, already in the time of Pausanias. I mean the type of "you could become as strong as a Giant, if you`d take a bath in our famous hot-springs". Only way out seems to be a trip down there and looking around personally. Maybe a cluster of St.George ( or St.Demetrios - his equivalent) chapels, with some accompanying ancient stone heaps, could be found this way, at the least! The other thing is where to draw a borderline between the Titans and the Giants!? It`s maybe more or less obvious that Titans are elder, have no need for consulting their Mother (being still a part of Her!?), and maybe impersonated a spiritual power of a special mountain dominating a tribe`s or a polis`territory. Such a CULT of MOUNTAINS could be discerned in Hittite sources and maybe once dominated even in Greece. Panhellenic novelties as Olympian Zeus and, maybe, Atlas and Prometheus - in place of local heaven-supporting Titans, could eliminate those mountain cults. This free space could be then filled up with Giants, just as the Greek myths say poetically - to take "revenge" on Olympian Gods. In this process, some hybrids could be formed, which are representing features of both Titans and Giants. I suppose, TITHYOS is one of them. What if originally he was revered as the impersonation of the "titanic" power of Mt.Olympos in Euboea!? Then, associated with Gaia and the "wandering" Lady Elare, he became a Giant, only to suffer a prolonged Promethean (two vultures and his liver) martyrdom at Panopeios (its local "Hades") - each year anew or what!? BTW To the North you can find two local names connected, as it seems, to Tithyos : - Tithorea and Tithronium. But back to those STYX problems. I wonder, why there`s no a duplicate of the Styx River in Tesprotia (Epirus)!? Well, if we`ve got Acheroon and Kokytos there...why not Styx... |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 16, 2005 | 12:51 GMT |
| Well, perhaps there was some connection with the rivers of Thesprotia. The Titaressos has its main source in the foothills of Mts Olympos and Titarios, but then arcs west towards the Pindar Mts, before backtracking east. Homer says the country of the Perrhaibians included Thesprotian Dodona, as well as (some portions) of the Titaressos river. So there seems to be a connection between the Styx (from which the Titaressos flowed), and those of the western rivers of the coast of Thesprotia - Akheron etc. The Greeks also believed the Styx, like many rivers, flowed under the earth, so that it should feed two rivers on opposite sides of the Pindar Mountains seems reasonable. Looking at Mt Titanos again, yes, I think Homer did mean the peak in Phthiotis to the south. He is speaking of the kingdom of Eurypylos, who received his bow from Herakles on Mt Oita, and Mt Oita was the fortress of the Titanes acc. to some. Though I guess the Titarios peak near Olympos could have been a rival candidate. You are right about Pallene (Kassandra Penins.), there does not seem to be anything special about it. Since you mentioned Euboian Titans, there were two more, Krios and probably the Euboian Aristaios (= Hesiod's Astraios?). |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 16, 2005 | 13:14 GMT |
| Scrap that, i confused Eurypylos with Philoktetes. Homer places the Thessalian Mount Titanos in the territory of the Ormenios, which lies between the Trikkans of westernmost Thessaly, and the Lapiths around Mt Olympos. So Mt Titarios or rather its mountain range (Homer's "the pale peaks of Titanos") would appear to form the northern border of their territory. Historically, no-one knew where Ormenion was, except that it formed a border with the Lapith country. Homer names two of the Ormenian towns Hypereia (of the Titan Hyperion?) and Asterion (of the Titans Astraios &/or Asteria?). A couple of the female Titans also had their cult centres nearby - Mnemosyne on the Pierian slopes of Mt Olympos, and Themis at Ikhnaie on the Thessalian plain. Iapetos seems to be somehow connected with the Lapiths. At least in myth, one Lapith warrior was called a son of Iapetos. The only geographical link for the name. |
| Posted by: Juergen May 16, 2005 | 16:16 GMT |
| It sounds very interesting with your mythical Titan topography and the location of the STYXes as several outflows of one common underground river of Hades. Now, as for Pallene as a place from where Giants could sling stones against Mt.Olympos. Heaps of stones size of a fist, discovered frequently at the feet of towers in fortified settlements are guessed to have been prepared there for catapults, in case of defending inhabitants against a besieging army. To a heap of such stones at some stage a legend could be attached that they were prepared by the Giants for the case of a battle. (All predecessors are greater than we, aren`t they!?) Later, a topographical connection could be forgotten but the legend would have lived its own life further on. Now, it would be possible to guess which heap of stones was that in Pallene only, if on this location the supposed tradition had been transformed into a Christian one. Simply, I`ve seen enough St.George chapels in Greece, lined with associated heaps of stones, to know this connection. A Knight killing the Dragon with a lance or trident is a surviving modest local representation of the Gigantomachy, I suppose. But what were those "ceremonial" heaps of stones (hermaia) good for is another story!! |
| Posted by: Lucky May 16, 2005 | 18:39 GMT |
| Now I don't remember the name of the Greek river where the Styx water was said to end up, but it was a river somewhere between Athens and Olympos. But I do remember that it was said that the two waters did not blend, that the water coming from Styx ran "by itself" in a slow, slushing and cold stream in the middle of the river, and that this stream could sometimes even be seen. Now I wonder what kind of natural phenomena might've caused such an effect. |
| Posted by: Juergen May 17, 2005 | 9:16 GMT |
| I suppose this phenomenon is simply the difference in density, caused by vast dissimilarity of temperatures, contents of chemicals (in volcanic areas) or suspended matter in separate streams before their confluence. And if a dramatic environment had prompted human minds to ascribe different spiritual qualities to separate streams or rivers, it could result in myth-like or alegoric stories!? |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 17, 2005 | 10:00 GMT |
| It is possible the waters were polluted with oil. Homer describes an oily substance floating on the Peneios where it and the Titaressos converged. Classical authors (400 years or so after Homer) do not know of this phenomenon, but then the oil source which might have spoiled the subterranean springs of the river was perhaps exhausted. Then again it could have just been silt. Though the "floating" and not mixing with the Peneios R. makes it sound more like oil. |
| Posted by: Nora May 17, 2005 | 11:48 GMT |
| Both Caliadne's explanations sounds both plausible and possible source of an effect like something that could trigger people's imagination. Oil mixed with water might also give a "rainbow-like" pattern (you've probably seen the effect when oil drips from cars mixes with pudddles in the street) that would also trigger people's imagination and connect the water to Iris - the messenger and rainbow goddess and the one who was said to be the one who went for the water of Styx when it was needed for oaths. Add to that a barren nature where the river surfaces (even if ancient Greece weren't as barren as it is today) and it's quite easy to connect that river to the main river of the Underworld. |
| Posted by: Frida May 20, 2005 | 18:10 GMT | ||
| Thanks all for your help! I found the name later (hateful) but all the other info was valuable as well. Caliadne wrote:
This triggered some interest too, gonna look into this! |
| Posted by: Kadmos May 20, 2005 | 18:19 GMT |
| Styx in my American Heritage Dictionary comes from the Indo-European root steu-, which means "to push or beat". Other derivatives from this root are [/I]steep, stock, tuck, stupid, tympanum[I], etc. |
| Posted by: Silverblue May 22, 2005 | 0:06 GMT | ||
Weren't the titans having a HQ on a mountain top too? The Teogony doesn't really mention that they were, but reading between the lines you get the feeling that they did. (Like when Zeus storms their stronghold together with the 100handeds) And I've read about it in other places. On the other hand, the areas around Olympos are rather montaneous, so it would only be logical to assume that the Titans had their own mountain strong hold too. |
| Posted by: Kice Brown May 22, 2005 | 6:34 GMT | ||
I couldn't confirm this at first in my American Heritage Dictionary, which is a copy of the 3rd edition. However, when I accessed my 2nd edition of Watkins' American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, which claims "its nearly 1350 entries are more than double the number contained in the Appendix of Indo-European Root of the Fourth Edition of The American Heritage Dictionary of English", I readily found the I-E root steu-, with its "derivatives referring to projecting objects, fragments, and certain related expressive notions and qualities. Thus, both "steep" and "steeple" contain connotations of lofty or projecting or deep, and "stock" was originally a tree trunk (compare stockade). "Stupid" and "stupendous" derived from a Latin verb meaning "to be stunned". Tympanum -- Greek tympanon -- is a drum (something beaten). How then does Styx ("extended zero-grade form *stug-) then fit in here? Well, perhaps it's related to depth, with Styx plunging deep into the underworld. Or perhaps it's related to the traditional rivers so named rushing steeply from a mountainside. The next question is how the Greek word derived from this root means hated, abhorrent, etc.? Perhaps Room's statement that "'crossing the Styx' meant death and was to be feared and abhorred" (compare crossing the Jordan in a Christian context of going to Heaven rather than to Hades), provides the appropriate clue -- that indeed the meanings "hated" or "abhorrent" arose secondarily, after the river(s) Styx was identified as a border between life and death. |
| Posted by: Juergen May 22, 2005 | 7:06 GMT |
| River Jordan was imagined by some prophets as flowing into a gaping mouth of the Behemoth /a hellish monster/. Was it an abstraction with no topographical connotations!? I doubt it!! It seems to me, that Behemoth was a symbolic code for the spiritual qualities of the Dead Sea. Gehinnom Valley, south of Jerusalem, maybe pertains to the same set of coordinates. Similarly, analyzing what Pausanias has to say about river Styx in Arcadia could probably help. |
| Posted by: Vlad May 26, 2005 | 7:56 GMT |
| Let me do this for Juergen, which had probably no time enough to open Pausanias !? "As you travel west from Pheneos into the setting sun...right-hand road takes you to NONAKRIS and the STREAMS of the STYX. In the old days Nonakris was an Arkadian town named after Lykaon`s wife, but in our own times it lies in ruins... Not far from these ruins is a high crag: I have never seen a rock face so high; the water falls sheer down it, and this is the stream that the Greeks call Styx..." And Peter Levi (translator of Pausanias`"Guide to Greece. Book VIII - Arkadia") adds : "...The falls of the Styx are now called Mavroneri (the Black Water); the river falls 600 feet down a sheer face of the ridge of Chelmos." I found it interesting that the waters of Styx had these peculiarities (shortened) : "...The stream flows into the river Krathis and its water is death to men and to all animals. They say the water of the Styx dissolves glass and crystal and agate and all the stone objects known to man and all the stone objects known to man, even pottery vessels. The water corrupts horn and bone, iron and bronze, and even lead and tin and silver and the alloy of silver and gold...and the only thing able to resist the river Styx is a HORSE`S HOOF, which will hold the water you pour in and not be destroyed by it..." So, when looking for the beginnings of the idea of Styx, we should take this peculiarity into account, am I right!? What a kind of a mythical horse was that!? |
| Posted by: Juergen May 26, 2005 | 10:14 GMT |
| Ok, Vlad. It`s because I`d estimated that this topic was exhausted. Well, if you want, we can try to look at this landscape with a "mythical" eye. First - "Nonakris" (Nine-Tops) nearby the Styx` spring. This name brings to mind the statue of Artemis with so many breasts - found in Miletos. (I know, I know...there are people who want them to be a bunch of dates or bulls`testicles) And from one of Her paps comes Styx flowing!? Hmmm... anyway. So, Lykaon`s wife (or a goddess, whom he worshipped!?) - Nonakris, was maybe really Artemis!? What about other paps of the supposed local All-Mother!? Krathis river seems to flow out from some other of them!? Creation in an equilibrium with destruction!? It sounds like ideas behind many different goddesses of life and death. From the Pausanias` list of materials and living beings, which underwent destruction in contact with the water of the Styx, we could see that it was a very universal destructing agent. Why a horse`s hoof being indestructible!? The connection with the Moon (crescent = horseshoe) says "water of Styx = negative Moon magic". And what about Arkadian Poseidon in a form of a horse in this context!? Indoeuropean traditions point to a horse as a symbol of the Universal Creator!! Well, well. It`s really a landscape worth wandering through - this Arkadia; with a Pausanias`copy in hand!! |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 26, 2005 | 10:48 GMT | ||
| Nonakris might also mean nine spring-heads - suggesting a fountain nymph. Herodotus also describes the Styx:
I wonder what the swearing involved, just pouring libations of the water, or inbibing it as well? Its not clear how corrosive the waters were, Pausanias may just be recounting an old wives tale. In the same sentence he says the urine of he-goat dissolves diamonds!! Though of all the water-vessels, a horses' hoof would be reasonably immune to corrosive acids - hoof material is dense hair fibres & so not prone to corrosion like metals and bone. Perhaps horse hooves were by shepherd's to make primitive water flasks. I tried to find a picture of the Styx online, not much luck under either modern or old name. |
| Posted by: Juergen May 26, 2005 | 13:06 GMT |
| I would insist however, that there are some additional layers of meaning under Pausanias` semingly naive and uncritical relations. For whom he was writing this guide-book anyway!? Learning first the world of his public`s ideas could help in dechiffering of some cultural codes, which are largely undetectable for us. Who doesn`t laugh reading some alchemical recipes nowadays!? The same is with this he-goat urine and a diamond. But how can be sure that it is not a learned allusion to some fables known in his times!? As a "quintessence", I would rather give him a medaille for his preserving of so many details regarding local beliefs and their connections to the features of landscape. Otherwise, we could be tempted to take the generally accepted "Olympian" vision of cults in ancient Greece for real !! |
| Posted by: Caliadne May 26, 2005 | 16:31 GMT |
| Pausanias' audience appears to be the Greek and Roman elite of the Empire. He seems to be far more interested in history and notable art and architectural works, than religion. Though he does question the cult priests or caretakers when the urge takes him, and adds their stories. As for Greco-Roman pseudo-science, you just have to read Pliny's "Un-"Natural History, for an example of the many funny misconceptions the ancients had. You cannot read a text like Pausanias with just one eye, and its impossible to put many of his comments into any sort of context. Some of his material, is just, the standard trashy tourist manual stuff "if you're visiting Helos, go check out the egg Helen hatched" ... or "go see the mumified remains of a monster Triton in Tanagra!". You can see he doesn't have that much interest in the religious aspects, simply because of the low % of references in the work as a whole. And of course he almost completely omits descriptions of religious festivals, except to illustrate a particularly unusual or curious custom in describing a particular site. |
| Posted by: Silverblue May 26, 2005 | 19:10 GMT |
| Well it was the "Lonely Planet Guide" of that time... I'm certain Pausanias was overexagerrating now and then, but which writer/guide/journalist/cronichler hasn't done that? I'm still guessing we are looking for a river which water has been polluted by some seismic/vulcanic activity. Perhaps it was toxic, and not drinkable or even fit for swimming in, and then people were exaggerating it to scare the children off, and when it reached Pausanias's ears it had been sort of distorted. |
| Posted by: Vlad May 27, 2005 | 7:01 GMT |
| Hi,Caliadne. When comparing your text on Styx taken from Herodotos and the description of the Styx spring/falls in Pausanias, one conclusion is inevitable. Maybe both were using some cliches of their time, instead of real knowledge. The first forms a vision of a ceremonial pond, which in antiquity signified frequently an Entrance to the Underworld. The second had probably taken the most scenic fragment of the general area pointed out by tradition (Chelmos Range, Krathis river, etc.), - to form an interesting route for tourists. The only "crop" we`ve got from the present discussion is maybe that the Styx was sometimes presupposed to come flowing from somewhere on high!? |
| Posted by: Sten May 27, 2005 | 10:36 GMT |
| Wait a minute. Do you guys know that maybe the only living analogon to Greek cults you can find in India!? And as for IMAGINARY RIVERS, which are hard to locate, there`s at least one over there. During the feast of Kumbha Mela, when around 100 millions people visit the confluence area of Ganges and Jamuna, there are also many saddhus (wise men; sages, or like) there. And they maintain that a third river is flowing across this area - the Saraswati river. And the saddhus are taking bath in Saraswati, while the others cannot see any such river around. As for Hades and its rivers. Wherefrom comes this assumption that the Land of Hades with its rivers should lie somewhere underground!? Well, if Dionysos plunges into the pond of Lerna to get his mother out of Hades...!? Yes, in this case it`s maybe obvious that you enter Hades going underground. But in many other cases (like of Odysseus) it seems that you enter Hades going through a gate and entering some area put apart only for the souls of the deceased in our own real world. Well, well, in the West we`ve forgotten what a "taboo" (or sacred) area means. All in all, the river of Styx may flow somewhere in the area of Nonakris in Arkadia, as the cited authors told us. But what if originally it could be seen by the eyes of a "saddhu" only!? |
| Posted by: Juergen May 27, 2005 | 14:59 GMT |
| Hi, Sten. It seems to me that more popular in Europe are those "bottomless" ponds or lakes as entrances to the Underworld. I know hundreds of them designated as such and have never pondered about the real meaning of having no bottom, until now. And as for those "esoteric" rivers of Indian saddhus; one question is maybe in place here. Do they wind or flow along a straight line !? If the latter is the case, no wonder that those "imaginary" rivers coincide with their real counterparts only to some extent !? |
| Posted by: Lee May 27, 2005 | 20:22 GMT | ||
| There were also caves that said to be the entrances into the underworld. And I guess people beleived that there were entrances in vulcanic areas because of the amount of sulfur fumes and the likes. "The stench of hell" if you like. Personally I'm not really that sure that there ever was a believed "part of Styx" reaching the upper world. Or perhaps there were, but it was considered to be "beyond the known world".
And I'm not sure Odysseus' Hades trip was really considered being a physical one. They way I've come to regard it is that it was a "spiritual trip", perhaps undertaken under hypnosis and/or by using drugs. Remeber, he went down under with the help of Circe, who knew magic. Or perhaps he didn't even "trip", he just called up some spirits (including Achilles) until he found Tiresias. Perhaps Circe worked as medium and Odysseus simply asked her qestions, and she answered under influences of the different spirits. |
| Posted by: Frodo May 28, 2005 | 6:14 GMT |
| Hi guys. Maybe we`ve forgotten that our cemeteries are just such areas "put aside for the souls of the deceased only". When you enter the gate, it`s usually not proper to eat, laugh or do other profane things there. (I exclude such extreme situations like Gypsies coming to graves of their ancestors, instead to a court of law, and reenacting a quarrel with a hope that grandpa can best judge their squabbles.) Our own living traditions point to the fact, that "Hades" as a special sacred space in our own real world is a feasible idea. But, of course, there are several different "Hades" spacing ideas, coexisting in human traditions. Take for instance burials in Neanderthalic dens, in the early towns of Asia Minor or under the floor of medieval churches in Europe. Association of such burials with the notion of "Hades" hidden deep underground, is obvious. |
| Posted by: Frida May 28, 2005 | 19:20 GMT | ||
I believe most of these trips down under were really spiritual ones. Including Heracles'. I can picture Heracles invoking the spirit of Cerberus instead of really "going to Hades". Perhaps the event took place in the very castle of Eurystheus, and with the king present. A king who really believed these things with spirits and the underworld was humbug and nursery tales. And when Eurystheus saw the dog-ghost being invoked he freaked of course. Such a interpretation of the 12:th labour would both be something different to this endless travelling of H and show a broader spectre of his abilities. Not only bravery and super strenght but also qualities as a magician/spiritual medium. And I also think the Hades/Persephone thing originally was a death mystery/hieros gamos tradition that became intertwined with the year cycle and thus the story with the kidnapped goddess was born. I can imagine it starting off as an invitation rite where young girls coupled with older men symbolizing death in an allegory of life's inevitable cycle including its ending. Like in: Death kidnaps everyone, sooner or later, even the most beautyful little girl. So no living being (including gods and demigods) really "went" to Hades, but some gifted people had the ability to go there in their minds. |
| Posted by: Frodo May 28, 2005 | 21:57 GMT |
| As a comment. Who was that who said this: -" There are no such places like Hell or Heaven; these are only terms denoting states of a human mind" !? Well, it was late Pope John Paul II, who used to be a playwriter and philosopher before moving to Rome. |
| Posted by: April's fool in May May 29, 2005 | 18:36 GMT |
| Well, would that mean that he did not believe on heaven nor in hell. Did he perhaps believe in God? |
| Posted by: Frodo May 29, 2005 | 19:41 GMT |
| Yes, he did. And his opinion on Hell and the Heaven perhaps should be taken as a fragment of his early philosophic discussions, aiming at critical review of antique ideas preserved in catholic theology. Well, from the point of view of an individual mind (in the meaning of the "higher soul" or spirit), maybe it`s like this that these terms are only designations of the state of this particular mind. Any other conceptions of the Otherworld are sociocultural constructs and differ from one time/place to another. John Paul`s definition had the advantage that it could be applied throughout the whole humanity with no regard to cultural and historical differences. |
| Posted by: Vlad May 30, 2005 | 5:30 GMT |
| Supposed mystic rivers of Hades, existing even in our world, could be found all over Balkan and elsewhere (e.g. Yukatan of ancient Mayas in Mexico), in so called "karst" landscapes. There`s a complicated system of underground hollows in such areas and it happens frequently that a stream plunges underground and then surfaces some kilometres away. Some ancient Greeks even tried to explain the identity of Asopos river names in Peloponnese and in Boiotia in this way. |
| Posted by: Juergen June 5, 2005 | 9:20 GMT |
| Hi,Caliadne There`s no any photo of Styx springs on the Net, as you`ve told us. But, if you go to www.gnto.gr (The Greek National Tourist Organisation)and download the map of mountain paths titled as "chelmos2", you can view the ruggy environment in detail. Coordinates are : longitude 22 degree 13` and latitude 37 degree 59`. Styx is named Mavronero(Stys) and to SW there are several ponds named Mavrolimni. Two of surrounding peaks are named after Nereids : Neraidalono (2252) and Neraidorachi (2338). Thetis - mother of Achilles, was a leader of Nereids and all information sites about excursions into the Chelmos massive (mostly under "Achaia prefecture") insist that it was here that she bathed him in Styx to impregnate his body against wounds. So, like in many other cases, archetypal motives from Greek myths are used to denote places, where a kind of "natural magic" occurs, which people can take advantage of. Or, in other words, in such places the myths, magic and religion are coming together into a kind of primordial unity. Still, why Arkadians were calling Cretans liars, when it came to the birthplace of Zeus!? Were they so stuck into their local world-view with its heavenly pole on Mt.Lykaion and the chthonian one at the Styx!? In prehellenic world-view, "Zeus" was probably born each Spring at local cosmic centers all over Aegean. When there are so many Olympuses all over the place (i.e. in Euboea, Karpathos, etc; not to name many "Panhellenios"- in Aegina, Chios and "Zas" - i.e. in Naxos), this supposition is inevitable!! Does it mean that every countryside had its place, where Thetis bathed her son!? Well... I suppose that this spiritual (and physical!?) quality of a particular running water can be elaborated into many different sagas. |
| Posted by: Frida June 5, 2005 | 18:14 GMT | ||
Probably because it's a part of human nature to be "stuck into ones local world-view" wherever you lived in ancient Arcadia, the old Roman Empire, old USSR, modern European Union, California, Israel, you name it. Your neighborhood, your tribe your nation is the best, the most holy, the smartest, the bravest, the most rightful, the selected ones by this or that mighty god/dess who just happened to be born on a mountain top nearby... The Cretans were probably calling the Arkadians liars too, bthw. |
| Posted by: Caliadne June 7, 2005 | 12:13 GMT | ||
| On the topic of Styx. Isn't it a little strange that the Nymphe Styx appears picking flowers with Persephone in the Nysian meadow prior to her abduction? She seems a little out of place amongst her sister Okeanides, who all seem to be quite lovely with names like Amber, Violet, Honey, Rose, Sweet-Flowing, Fast-Flowing, Apple-Feeder, Wealth, Fortune, Heavenly, Milky-Breeze, etc. Can we assume she is here just the Nymphe of the Arkadian stream, who descended into the underworld only after her mistress's abduction? Like Hekate in the same story, who is strangely absent from the company, unless she is "disguised" under another name before her chthonic descent. "Iakhe" perhaps? A very Eleusinian name - iakhe, the joy of cry celebrating the return of Kore in spring.
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| Posted by: Sten June 7, 2005 | 13:19 GMT |
| Well, it seems that the idea of the nymph Styx corresponds to the physical environment of the Styx river in Arkadia. As Kice pointed this, in its name there is an alternative meaning of flowing down from up on high. And from there it (she) is plunging into the "deepest" place...and taking Kore-Persephone with her, now and then!? - Styx is like a short-cut between the heavens and hell!! The ways of Hekate are different. She is supposed(?) to emerge from Hades every night with Her entourage; but what about going back each dawn!? It`s told that you can meet her at the crossroads and maybe it`s good news for someone, who has some magic aims to attain. In medieval Europe there was a custom of banishing (or burying) a witch "behind" some magic crossroads again. And we are here back again at the problem of a presence of Hades features within the world of living humans. Some special rivers, as well as roads and crossroads were put aside for those phenomena. Only when studying the Greek magic, all those things can be set into some context, I suppose. |
| Posted by: Silverblue June 7, 2005 | 20:36 GMT | ||
Perhaps she was spying on Persephone for her master. |
| Posted by: Caliadne June 7, 2005 | 21:23 GMT |
| Haha, Demeter must have been a bit dense not spotting the mole ... Persephone introduces her playmates to mum: "This is Honey, Rose, Violet, Milk, Hatred, Amber, FairFlow .. " Hatred (Styx) really does stick out like a sore thumb! But I guess when you name your daughter Persephone (Destructive Murderess?) a pal named Styx (Hatred) would go unnoticed. |
| Posted by: Kice Brown June 8, 2005 | 4:24 GMT |
| and she should have been a little suspicious of chthonic Kalypso and Plouto as well, n'est-ce pas? But for balance there's the heavenly Ourania. |
| Posted by: Count Zero June 8, 2005 | 11:33 GMT |
| I can just imagine overprotective Demeter going: - Now Persephone, I don't want you to play with that Styx. She's nog proper company for you and will only get you into troubble. And P: - Mum! That's none of your business!!! I hang with whoever I want, even if he happens to be Tartarus himself! |
| Posted by: Caliadne June 8, 2005 | 14:02 GMT |
| Yep, sounds like she was hanging out with the Goth chicks even before her trip down to Hades. In the end, they seem a match made in "heaven" (or rather hell). Is Kalypso really a chthonic name? I know it means something like Hide or Hidden, but I thought it was just the opposite of another Okeanis in the list, Phaino (Appear). |
| Posted by: Frida June 9, 2005 | 18:37 GMT |
| I always wondered who was the one most eager to have Persephone up again. Herself or her mama who didn't approve of her bf. Perhaps P ended up fine with staying down under :-) |